Elland Road Attendances Continue To Struggle TSS January 12, 2012 Leeds United 79 Comments Since the attendance stats we published last year are still being viewed regularly, we felt the update we’d promised later in the season was probably about due. The good news for Leeds United is our average attendance has risen since October 2011, the bad news is that The Whites are still experiencing the highest drop in numbers in the division – this despite sitting only one point off the play-offs. As the table above shows, Leeds have lost an average of 3,566 fans per game on last season. Let’s say each of those lost sales was worth a conservative £25 to the club, that would mean Leeds United are currently losing £89,150 every home game on 2010/11. In total, that would equate to over one million pound for the 12 home games we’ve played so far! The most worrying sign for Leeds is that the divisional average has risen quite substantially and is quickly coming into line with 2010/11 attendances. Back in October, sales were down 6.04% on the previous season. At the halfway stage, that’s already changed to just 1.70% which is a substantial increase in no way helped by the situation at Elland Road. More worrying still, is that Leeds’ average attendance is currently lower than it was in League One. In 2007-8, The Whites averaged 26,546. This dropped to 23,813 in 2009-10, which is only marginally higher than what we’re currently seeing, but higher nonetheless. We’ll pick this up again towards the end of the season. Dje Pay monkeys, get peanuts. Bates Out! Lol Dje I’m hoping Bates&Harvey have at least factored in the austerity deficit cuts. If they thought it’d have no impact on their income then they’re even bigger idiots than I took them to be. Tyler75 At New Years’ West Ham had a ‘Kids for a quid’ scheme for their game against Coventry and were rewarded with a crowd in excess of 34k as well as indoctrinating a whole new generation of fans – Sunderland used to do it all the time when they were in the Championship (and still do). Its not rocket science but probably well beyond Bates & Harvey’s understanding of running a football club. OldLag Maybe we have had a drop,however if you take into account the amount of disposable income the average man in the street has these days that is not surprising. We still do have the second highest average gates in the division. I will lay odds that our away following is just about the best in the division. This does mean that when you take this into account and take these figures from the numbers who come to ER I dont think that we are doing too badly. By The way where are the figures for the other 4 teams in the Championship ? TSS @OldLag Newly promoted and relegated teams were removed due to the huge variation that occurs with a change of league – we did the same last time. As for the disposable income argument, this isn’t a problem specific to Leeds – it’s nationwide, so the figures should be consistent across the board. NIgel Charlesworth I wanted to take my 6 year old lad to a match as a one off. Could I turn up and just buy a ticket on match-day or is it better to fight with the terrible LUFC website. I am not a club member, which restricts options to buy online. number1inyorkshire @NIgel Charlesworth to be fair you might be better at some point joining the members club little on gets in for £11 so you only have to go to 2 matches or so to make it worth while, 2 adults and 2 kids can go in i think on 1 membership and you can sit in family stand Irving08 @NIgel Charlesworth Yes, but only up to a certain time. Against Burnely I took a grandson aged 9 into the back of the Kop on a so-called restricted view ticket. It was (in my view) inexpensive (£32 in all) and there was less bad language than at the previous match in the family stand ! We had a great view and the atmosphere was not nearly so bad as some posters tend to make out. Mind you will need a strong arm – as everyone stands. Go for it ! TSS @Irving08@NIgel Charlesworth As ever, the atmosphere depends on the game, but it has dropped off this season dramatically – mainly because of the reduced number of away fans, we’re basically singing to ourselves. Irving08 @TSS@NIgel Charlesworth True – the decision to relocate them to a more expensive and aloof location was foolish. One would have thought the management on the pitch could have foreseen it. Bez I’m as concerned as most with the worrying lapse in numbers/atmosphere at ER… …but these stats are slightly misleading.. a) Last yr attendances were going to be high due to us being in a better league, seeing a much better calibre of players/clubs coming to ER, so the second season would naturally see an lapse. (if we got promoted to the prem, our 1st season back would definitely yield a higher average than the 2nd season in the prem (if we survived!! :-)). b) ER simply has the biggest stadia in the league by a mile, and the biggest fan base by a mile, so the potential volume of drop off will always have the potential to be significant. You can bet your bottom dollar, the likes of Norwich (last yr) and Derby (this yr) will always have minimal fluctuation because their stadia capacity is a perfect match for their average attendances in the late 20s (pretty much capacity!). TSS @Bez I don’t dispute point A too much, it’s a valid argument – though I’d like to see some example of that actually happening if possible? I doubt the drop is quite as profound. But point B is why we’ve added percentages. If it was simply a numbers game, and Leeds had lost many more because they had many more to start with, this would be consistent with an equal percentage drop to the rest of the division – which it isn’t. fdfdfas @Bez sorry bez you are trying to justify the bates effect this is our second season back and after finishing just outside the playoffs we should have been strengthening to make a promotion push, fans should have been flooding back. we didnt and as such our attendances are at league 1 level when we should be going back to pre bates 29000 ish. we have a stadium of 40000 which we should be filling as a championship side going for promotion or at least hitting 35000 on a regular basis. this club needs growing not shrinking fdfdfas Bates ever since he came has been reducing this club in size and support, when he took over we were one of the 10 historically best supported sides in the country. which is very good considering our early history and the 80s however since bates arrived we are now down amongst the average teams in the country. thats what this man has done to our club still theres hardly ever a bleat from our fans despite our squad diminishing in quality year after year. couldnt believe the outpouring of nonsense i heard today relating to bates comments on jason puncheon. good old batesy, hes showing him. yeah utter lies once again to cover up the fact he invests nothing in this club. you do nothing about it but sit their clapping your hands as you buy another team shirt, pathetic. if you dont like it force the old goat out its the only we are going to go anywhere number1inyorkshire The economic situation isn’t helping that i am sure off , However the lack of investment ,in the playing side with prices going up with nothing to show for it and bates really under estimating calling the fans “MORONS” and what that would do are to blame too .. BUT the biggest thing for me is that we are just not being entertained at E R . It is boring going to E R nowadays .. Add all the above to the equation ,is anyone surprised that gates are falling ,i am not TSS @number1inyorkshire Economic situation is across the board mate. You should see the exact same trend at every club – that’s why I added percentages. Irving08 @TSS@number1inyorkshire Actually the economic situation is not the same across the board. Towns like Reading are hardly suffering from public sector cuts and the freeze on salaries or the minimal economic growth of 2011. The economic situation would lead me to expect clubs like Hull and Leeds to suffer larger percentage drops in attendances under exisitng prices: M’boro is an interesting case – but they are privately bankrolled and have an improving team. Chareose @Irving08 christ this guy is really scraping the barrell………. Irving mate are you one of these guys thats employed by Ken bates purely to pump out Pro Bates propaganda? How anyone can try to make out the recession is specific to any one area and not others is beyond beleif…… Irving08 @Chareose I suggest you consult the economic statistics. Chareose @Irving08 so the increase in cost of living isnt felt everywhere……. ?? The only people who dont care are the wealthy. I dont suppose you have noticed the anti bates chants at football games and protests….. could it possibly be (dripping sarcasm) that this has had a pretty major impact on attendances aswell ??? I know thats hard to admit for someone who thinks the sun shines out of Ken Bates crack but cmon you can do it…….. Irving08 @Chareose No my point was simple, trivial even: that it is felt differently amongst different groups in different parts of the country. How you can deduce from what I said that I don’t care beats me; likewise, what I think about Ken Bates. And yes I do hear the Bates’ out chants and I do not think they help the side one iota which, when I am at the match, is all I am thinking about. As to the prices at Leeds, I think the East Stand central is ridiculously expensive. The South Stand, Family Stand and Kop – while not cheap – are not, overall, out of the reach of thos of our fans who are in work. As a pensioner, I can just about afford to attend most home matches – but then I forego other things in order to: that”s my choice. I would like to see the club distribute free tickets to Leeds schools and have a special price for young unemployed persons from the city. So what are your proposals ? Chareose @Irving08 my proposals ?? THE proposal would have been a balanced appraoch to improve the ground AND the team. I dont think the fans would have any complaint if Leeds had spent say 3 million on transfers and made our wage structure a bit more competitive……… that would leave 3-4 million for the ground. With player investment you would get a better atmosphere at Elland road, more fans, more money and less excuses for the manager to fail………… Chareose @Irving08 Look even if you assume Bates has Leeds united best interests at heart I think hes gone about everything in the wrong order……. His handling and timing is incredibly poor. Hes spent what disposable income we have on infrastructure that may or may not help income but because of the timing (when we were maybe 3 players short of a concerted promotion push at the start of the season – in my opinion) the club could not make the last kick to the premiership and that has alienated fans already alienated by Bates attitude and opinionated manor. In actual fact if the mood continues to worsen around elland road its like that his new facilities could fall flat on their collective asses and thus rely on the Football club to bail out rather than adding income. AND thats assuming Ken wants to spend any extra income on the team and therein lies the rub. Hes lost the trust of the fans through his own actions, lies, manipulations…….he is most certainly the footballing equivalent of of a political tyrant…….. number1inyorkshire @TSS course it is ,which is why i mentioned other factors ,i think the main 1 for me is the entertainment at E R there is no buzz going to the ground . TSS @number1inyorkshire Agree, it’s been really poor this season. I have no enthusiasm at all for home games lately. Luke Robert Snodgrass Wroe cos bates is a cunt Sy Richardson glad i aint a glory supporter then Ricky Lufc Collins He’s outpriced it for a lot of fans especially those with families. I still think lower pricing would put bums on seats. The additional income from programmes, The Shop and drinks etc would cover lower pricing. Jason Saville its all to do with the pricing policy & the fact that away fans now been charged highest price in ground for worst seats so the away fans are not travelling. Ben Lufc Harris Who cares about the away fans and don’t most clubs put the away fans in the worst seats ?? Sy Richardson they never come in numbers anyway it was 30 quid for us at barnsley and we filled the place Jason Saville i dont give a shit about away fans either i know a few barnsley fans & few text me asking why there ticket had gone fron 24 quid last year to 37 this year & they just said Bates could fuck of they were not paying it. Wayne Sheriff Fatman North i havent been since a midweek game about 6yrs ago against forest! had a ticket for west standB, my son decided he wanted to go so when we got to the ground, went to the ticket office and asked for a child ticket near to mine. The girl said there were no more child seats left??? 1st time id heard this, so she wanted me to pay full price for a 10yr old?!! no chance so i snuck him in with me, got inside to find the ground only half full with loads of seats spare near to me. along with that and the fact that its so difficult to get tickets (online) i decided then i had had enough. Im 44 and a lot of my mates feel the same way now. My son is now 16, in his 2nd yr of his season ticket and has decided he will not be re-newing it. After the forest debarcle, we went up to Ibrox against Hearts and was charged £33 for the 2 of us in the main stand. and you’re not told to sit down and shut up by the stewards! Football is for the poncy brigade now, used to be a working class sport for working class people. I agree with a comment above, who cares about away fans? they all hate Leeds scum, so give them the worst seats, charge them the earth and treat em like sh!t, cos thats all Leeds fans get away from home! and im not a glory supporter who will apply for tickets if we get to wembley or whatever, i really have had my fill. had my fun in camp nou, moscow, bernabau prague etc, fab memories, which i will always be indebted to LUFC for. Thank you, but value for money is not happening anymore, and there is only so long you can accept being used as a mug :o) Jason Saville i echo above i had some friends come home for christmas & went to the Burnley game i said id get tickets near them in east stand central 36 quid each no reduction for my boy of 11 what a joke Wayne Sheriff Fatman North beggars belief Jason, the 33 i paid at Ibrox was £22 + £11, cant fault that, and they were doing ok in Europe back then!! If Bates is a businessman, why can he not see, that getting 40,000 in everyweek at £25 adults, and subsidised for kids etc would not only be financially productive, but would get the team buzzin infront of weekly crowds like that, and will maybe help decision making easier to potential targets with regards to the playing staff The Scratching Shed Same reason that, as a “businessman” he holds personal grudges against potential assets to the club. This isn’t about you, me or Leeds United. This is all about Ken Bates. Worship him! Mark Wiggy Wigley All valid reasons!!! But I think most people are of the opinion why should we spend good money in shit times wen bates won’t even put any money in to buy players! It’s a joke, but shear love of Leeds united im still daft enough to go and pay them prices!!! Pad Thompson Don’t want to be the one to say it but what happens if we do get promoted? If he can charge nearly £40 for Barnsley what’ll it be for scum at home in the PL?! Xx Wayne Sheriff Fatman North Im sure with 20,000 willing to pay that for Barnsley, the other 20,000 would be made up of the non-working class johnny come lately glory boys, so although i kinda agree with Pad, West Ham charge up to £80 and they still selling!? As long as fans feel connected to the Premier Lg, they will pay almost anything! for me, i would only return if the prices reflect the quality of product. That said, i think i will be waiting for 3 successive relegations for that to happen. Hinns I was part of the first phase of loyal fans, about 10,000 of us, who stopped going regularly when Bates first got the chance to jack up the prices to ludicrous levels and test our dignity and self-respect. It was heartbreaking to see only 18,000 at Elland Rd for the first game of that season, Vs Millwall, particularly as well over 30,000 turned up for the previous league game – an utterly meaningless game Vs. Rotherham. It got worse as we only managed an average gate of 22,000 that season, despite getting to the play off final. We didn’t even sell out our play off semi home leg. Crowds the following season dipped to as low as 16,000. Put in that perspective, our current gates, whilst pretty rubbish and the subject of some derision, have held up reasonably well. Bates gambled on gentrifying the Elland Rd experience and tried to attract fewer ‘morons’ in favour of a more middle-class support who have no problem paying a good 50% more than the divisional average, or paying 200% more than the divisional average for their kids. Considering our income per seat occupied per game dwarfs that of any other club who have played outside the Prem in that period, the relatively low crowds still generate a ticket revenue which bests anybody else’s by a significant margin. Unfortunately this isn’t reflected in the club’s transfer policy, but Bates gets away with it precisely because the average Elland Rd ‘customer’ is no longer the type to protest. Our current average gate of about 23,000 is pretty much the average gate for the entire Bates era, so crowds haven’t really dipped when taking a long term perspective. Taking an even longer term perspective however worries me greatly. We attracted only 90 new applicants last summer and a generation of ordinary people with ordinary jobs and from ordinary families are now excluded from following their local team. We were the 4th best supported team in England between 89 and 2005, this is very unlikely to happen again even if by some miracle we became successful. And as for ever being promoted to the Premier League with the 4th highest average crowd in the country, as happened in 90, forget it. I’m not saying the club can’t ever recover, but even clubs like Sheff U and Derby have mustered averages of 29,000 in the Championship in recent seasons, and I fear that’s about the best we can aspire to whilst we continue to be punished by being the 5th most expensive team in England to follow. On the bright side, our away following can still turn heads, as a loyal fan who goes to away games only, I’m particularly proud of that Colin I’d hazard a guess that Merchadise/Shirt sales are down as well. A lot of people have boycotted that already due to Bates hate, the Macron quality is awful, and the new sponsor each year means that your shirt is outdated after a season and half way through the season, it’ll drop to half price anyway. So lower profits there too. BarneyWhite Macron can produce quality shirts if that is what is ordered. The issue is that bates orders the cheapest possible and sells them at top prices. Same with the playing staff – gets the cheapest possible but charges top prices to watch them. All very depressing. Daveylufc Quite simply the fans have realized the club has zero ambition. Panamaleeds @Daveylufc Well said Danny Bowden Still the highest average attendances in the league by my reckoning, and by your table, though you have missed out West Ham, Southampton and others. This will be the last article I read on your site, i’ve never in my life read so much negativity on a consistent level by any website or publication. If it hurts you so much, why don’t you just cut your losses and start following Farsley Celtic or Leeds Rhinos? TSS We’re second on the above. 4th/5th overall, which is ridiculous really considering the size of the city we represent. The teams missing are the promoted/demoted teams – their attendances will have obvious variation due to the change in division. Irving08 @TSS Leeds United has never had an exclusive call on the sporting loyalties of Leeds people. We have always been almost as much a Rugby League city (I exclude here the surrounding villages and small towns) as a footballing one. Together with cricket at Headingley this has to be factored into any analysis of our ‘natural’ city support. Boycie Your ‘reckoning’ doesn’t reckon into account the 3 Championship clubs with a higher average attendance? Even Southampton and Derby pull in a significant 3,000 more per game, and we’re only a hundred or so ahead of such powerhouses as Leicester, Cardiff and Forest. Our crowds are shit because the prices are ridiculous. In Bates’ first few years there were up to a dozen better supported teams outside the Premier League. He’s killed our fanbase. God knows what crowds we’d get if we were firmly mid-table. Bates managed to drive the crowds down to 16,000, I reckon he could get us lower JKuechel As a long-distance supporter (relatively) I’m attending less games this season due to the increasing price of me travelling down for a weekend. Pisses me off because I’m feeling less loyal. Still, at least i pay the obscene LUTV subscription! WIll23 Back in the 1980s after relegation we were soon down to under 15k average per season. Yes one game attracted c8k I recall (vaguely) – due to stand closures (for the Keegan coin trouble was it?) – can’t be bothered to dig out the stats now. I am very surprised we are getting over 20k when the economy is continuing its downturn, with prices for football ridiculous compared to other forms of entertainment, and when the nature of the game is not as good now (no tackling), the atmosphere today is poorer, and although today’s players have better fitness, I do not think your average Championship player of today has a better skill level than their 80s equivalent. So football is far from value for money, yet somehow 23k still think the suffering and cost is worth it at today’s exorbitant prices which I find surprising. I am sure next season will see a 5k+ drop at Elland Road unless Grayson engineers the mother of all miracles (doubtful). Maybe this is why Bates considers us fans to be morons…for agreeing to pay £35 to sit in the West Stand…he has a point!!!! Irving08 Don’t know enough about the profile of Leeds fan to contribute much to the analysis. However as a senior citizen with two grandchildren – one of whom is a member – I do know that an afternoon out at Elland Road is cheaper than a Saturday matinee at Leeds’ principal theatres (evening prices are almost prohibitive). My hunch is that an element of attendance is momentum-driven, with some of this season’s fall-off being due to a palpable feeling that we missed a trick last season together with a disappointing close season in the signings’ market. Irving08 Only an inordinate amount of patience and enjoyment of a good debate prevents me from joining Danny Bowden and leaving this site. I am tempted to say – with supporters like TSS, who needs Man U ? If I was the suspicious sort, I would even say TSS has ‘an agenda’. He does sometimes talk sense, but it is too often laced with arsenic. Rise above the tendency to sneer TSS…..you have much to offer.. TSS @Irving08 We just cover the concerns of supporters. Attendances and ticket pricing is a common theme, you can’t expect us to ignore that, can you? Also, the reason Ken Bates so commonly features in these pages is because Ken Bates does everything he can to make an headline – are we supposed to ignore that too? When he slags a player off for no reason whatsoever, that becomes a story. That’s the soap opera existence we currently live as Leeds United fans. mulletcalves @TSS without asking you to divulge your figures, would it be possible to see how your site traffic has correlated (if at all) with our attendances? a cheeky line graph? no? TSS @mulletcalves I have no problems sharing traffic statistics for the site. Are you asking if there is any increase for this article on a standard one? If so then, no, not really.. The easy traffic is in making up ridiculous transfer rumours. Link us with any player and the article will get 10x our average, but we’ve never done that here. We tend to do round-ups and comment on where they’ve come from and how likely they are (or how ridiculous they are, as is usually the case), but the only time we publish any transfer news aside from that is if it’s a solid enough link. For example, we didn’t attempt to grab hits by adding further weight to the ridiculous Emile Heskey rumour and there’s been plenty of others besides. Articles like this do however, have a longer lifespan. Unlike the made-up transfer rumours some other sites publish, this is entirely factual so people continue to link to it for months afterwards. I’d rather we published stuff like that then fall into the trap of chasing cheap hits. PS. Sorry I couldn’t provide a graph mulletcalves @TSS cheers for the response. i actually meant for the site as a whole? i just wondered if, like ER attendances, your site’s hits have taken a hit as well? have people lost the the love for leeds altogether, or just not turning up to the ground? of course it’s a very rudimentary bit of analysis (e.g. the fans that come on here will likely be the ones who’d pay through the teeth to attend games anyway) and probably nonsense, but it’s leeds nonsense. TSS @mulletcalves No, we’ve increased visitor numbers year-on-year mulletcalves boom. quite right too. Shawn The best way to get shot of bates to to hit him in his wallet. Just don’t go, real simple, all I read is moan moan moan about bates, so bloody do somat about the areshole ! He hates Leeds Utd, he publically said it once, so why did he buy us ? I remember the days of protesting about Silver and Cousins, so why aint we protesting about the tjis git ? TSS You’re 100% right. I had this discussion on Twitter the other night, defending those that had voted with their feet. At least they’ve taken some action. BarneyWhite agree we need the force him out but not going is not the way. – the most exciting day at ER this season was the day 1 Bates protest – and that did not amount to much. I suspect the reason things are quiet re the Bates out campaign is the fact that we are all hanging on to the small chance that we make playoffs. As the season moves on and we cement our place in mid table no mans land things will change. I hope and expect that there is a sustained and aggressive Bates out campaign as this cannot go on any longer. Irving08 @BarneyWhite Or it could be the dawning realisation that confontation is not the way forward. A better way would be to draw up a list of ‘reformist’ proposals and put them to the management. NorthEastLoiner @Irving08@BarneyWhite Mainly at Irving08 but are you Bates love child because that is the only way any supporters proposals to him would be heard!!! Irving08 @NorthEastLoiner@BarneyWhite How do you know ? Ian Slater I work in London alot Wayne and there has been no hard times there all the money sent by the goverment is on london! John Thorner Whilst I agree with sum of the comments above I can say with my hand on my heart tht the only place whreI have ben badley treated this season is at Brighon. Being disabled supporter I use a Wheelchair or a Mobility Scooter the later requires 2 meters clearance at the rear of my vehicle for the hoist to swing it out and lower it. So about four weeks before the game I always e-mail the home club and request parking instructions. Southamptom were absolutely Brilliant as were Arsenal last Monday Brighton did not hve thecourtesy to reply.the view at Brighton was shocking as was it at the Emirates@ Saint’s I was almost abe to chat to Andy Lonergan I was that close during the game. Also I think the way we were treated in London not being allowed in every pu we tried to get in and there was 14 of us Leeds & Arse Fans all mates as well was appaling TSS That’s last season. That’s the point, we’ve lost huge numbers of fans. Irving08 @TSS And if we were doing better, the crowds would be higher too. And at least part of the blame for the team’s patchy performances, must lie with the management. TSS @Irving08 We did pretty much the exact same last season! We had higher crowds in League One. Are other clubs not affected by league position? Would we not see similar drops in attendance elsewhere? There’s nothing close to ours, meaning it’s unique to us. It’s probably several factors causing the overall slump, but let’s not pretend some of it’s not down to pricing – you’ve got fans on here telling you they didn’t renew because of that! Before further trying to insult my intelligence by calling me totally one-sided and incapable of rational thought when it comes to Bates, maybe you should look in the mirror – your attempts to excuse him are getting weaker. number1inyorkshire it seems some people are getting hot under the collar on a site that has never claimed to be anything that it isn’t . TSS offers opinions its up to you if yo want to read em or even contribute ,often the article author gets a grilling and has to defend his corner which is only right . there are many sites that offer an opinion with reader comments turned off ,with no reply service .. then of course for all those with differing opinions you can submit your own ARTICLE for us to disagree with ,when i don’t like somewhere i just do not go back simple Irving08 Number 1 It is not that simple. This site appears to be sponsored by a person or persons dedicated to the destabilisation of the football club I have supported through thick and thin for 50 odd years – and my family before me. There is a good German word schaudenfraude – it means, roughly, getting pleasure from the distress of others. TSS has made it plain in his articles and responses to postings that this is the emotion he would feel if he was to be proved to be right by the failure of the Bates’ regime. In the communist movement this used to be called ‘revolutionary defeatism’. My feelings for my club do not permit me this luxury. NorthEastLoiner @Irving08 The stats speak for themselves. Bates is bleeding the club dry with his pricing and lack of investment and we are struggling to pay the price to support the team we love. Stop criticising real supporters and start questioning Bates running of the club TSS @Irving08 Don’t be ridiculous, the last thing I want to see is the club damaged. I just see it as an inevitability with Bates at the helm, his record stands testament to his dreadful business skills and isolating fans is just another indicator that he’s repeating the same mistakes. I’m not an “I told you so” kind of guy, certainly not when my club has been damaged by an all too predictable outcome. I’d rather Bates sell up and ship out long before that happens. But, as a site that comments on Leeds United, we have to comment on Ken Bates. I can only do so honestly, and that’s what I’ve done throughout. Irving08 @TSS Surely the fact that we made a profit last year means that he has some skills ? And isn’t supporting fans who choose not to attend because Bates is our Chairman doing damage to the club ? My hunch is that all these corporate facilities and the other ground developments – much as some of them are not to my taste – will make us more rather than less attractive to potential new owners. Given that Bates is not prepared to sink any of his own cash into playing side, I hope a new owner is found soon….and, to be frank, a new manager as well. Meanwhile….. Mark45 @Irving08 Just because your feelings dont permit you the luxury doesnt make you right, as you say its just how you feel and surely the point of a forum like this is to give every other fan that wants to contribute to the debate an opportunity to do so and express their feelings, even if they are contrary to your own. I don’t agree with everything TSS says or proposes but to say this site is dedicated to “the destabalisation of the football club” is something straight out of the mouth of Ken Bates (who is nothing more than a liar, a fraud and a cheat and the single worst thing ever to happen to Leeds United). I sounds like you would be happier sticking to LUTV and Ken’s regular programme note rants for your interaction with the club, not too sure what pretentious political name you have for that so will leave you to make your own up. Brilliant job as always TSS, your wrong about Grayson but still think the site is excellent and long may it continue. Andrew Barritt carry on following the mighty LEEDS UTD john, we need supporters like you MOT……….. Pingback: The Fabian Delph Season Ticket Renewal Con? « The Scratching Shed – Leeds United Rumours, News and Blog() Pingback: Elland Road Season Ticket Renewals Down 16.3% | The Scratching Shed - Leeds United() harold These days with no standing just seats, over the top prick stewards, and if you fart your banned for life, its crap at football now, GELDERD END R.I.P.