Out Of The Closet Time For Glory Hunters TSS November 8, 2011 Leeds United 113 Comments A bad patch of form at Leeds United means the cries for Simon Grayson to be sacked are back with a vengeance. Even a 1-0 away win to promotion favourites Leicester City did little to halt some fans vendetta. You see, the problem with Leeds United fans is that they’re incredibly reactionary. Not only that, but because the vast majority are Yorkshire born and bred, stubbornness is hard-coded into their DNA. Once they’ve committed their instantaneous reaction to social networks, forums and sites like this, their stubbornness won’t allow them to turn back. Their reaction is now permanent. People can quote them on it, so they fear any change of opinion would be taken as a sign of weakness, thus devaluing any future comments they may wish to make. Even days later when they’ve had chance to calm down and put things into perspective, or weeks later when Simon Grayson has got things back on track they’ll still find justification to stick by their earlier comments – even though they’ve realised how stupid their reaction was. The defence is a prime example of this. It’s easy for fans to use it as justification for a Grayson Out rant, despite the fact we’ve been plagued by constant injuries (Naylor, Kisnorbo, O’Brien, O’Dea, Lonergan) and that we still managed to finish above what anybody had hoped for last season. Who’d be a manager? Everyone’s a critic, and everyone insists they’re right. Doesn’t matter how well the opposition perform, or how good they are, there is simply no excuse for Leeds United being second best. Our recent League Cup tie against Manchester United summed it up perfectly when we lost 3-0 to the English Champions and our fans criticised everyone on the pitch for a lack of heart. Could it just be that Manchester United are a better team? Don’t be ridiculous. Things can’t be that simple. It can’t just be a case of us being second best on the day. There has to be a reason why we didn’t win. Someone must be blamed. The game must be analysed and re-analysed, then analysed some more until we’ve reached a stage where someone has run a simulation of the game on Football Manager 2012 playing Youth Player X instead of Robert Snodgrass, with Ramon Nunez and Jonny Howson playing just behind Luciano Becchio in a Christmas tree formation, thus resulting in a convincing Whites win. And there’s absolutely no excuse for Simon Grayson to have not used the same system. It works on FM2012 for Christ sake Simon, what is wrong with you? Never mind the fact that new formations take weeks, sometimes months of practice to master, or that Football Manager is an absolutely pointless game that has no reflection on reality which people waste far too much of their life playing, LeedsDude47 has a screenshot that shows a 3-0 win. He saved and reloaded the game eight times first, but that’s beside the point. It reaches a stage where the realistic fans are overshadowed by a stubborn minority who by now, have spent so many hours picking flaws in highlights of Leeds United games, they’ve convinced themselves Simon Grayson is an absolute idiot and they could do a much better job. This is the TalkSport generation; a generation who are convinced football management is best learnt from watching TV, and that anybody could do it better than those rare few who actually do. It’s a generation who cares little for the hours spent on the training ground, for the hours more a manager sits in his office studying the opposition and working on tactics and less still for the obstacles they may have to overcome, such as injuries or failed transfer bids. That all requires reasoning and perspective, and unfortunately for Simon, that seems to be evading more and more fans every season. It puzzles me as to why these fans watch football in the first place. They clearly can’t handle the variance inherent in this sport. We all suffer when our team loses, it can govern our mood for days after. But for the majority of us, defeat only makes victory all the more sweeter. That’s not true of this minority though, is it? One suspects defeat is easier for them than victory, because they don’t have to work as hard to get their point across. Everyone is a little down after defeat and looking for someone to blame – finding allies at this point is all too easy. But when Leeds have won and everyone else is enjoying themselves, these people have to work harder than ever to continue their campaign of perpetual moaning. The justification for their rants shifts from the most recent game, to every low we’ve had in recent years, all neatly laid out for you with the balance our successful patches and strong points add totally ignored. I’m sure there are people reading this who are preparing a speech of how wrong I am. I’m no doubt missing key information that makes their justification for a hate campaign perfectly logical. In fact, I’m the idiot for enjoying football while we have such total incompetence leading the charge. To those people, please save yourselves the time and go buy a Manchester City shirt. You’re clearly not cut out for a club that has so many ups and downs – it’s ruining your life. Like the gay lads that marry and have kids, you’re fooling yourselves. You’re basically a glory-hunter, afraid to step out of the closet. Please, don’t misinterpret this as a shot at every fan who has ever overreacted after a poor result, or who has moaned about continual problems affecting the club – we all do that, it stems from our desperate desire to succeed. We want to know that everyone at the club cares just as much as we do, and our emotions get the better of us at times. The group of fans I’m talking about here are those who take pleasure in defeat and use it to justify their constant moaning. The fans who would still find something to criticise if we’d won the last ten in a row. They’re the “I told you so” crowd nobody likes, but who insist on annoying us all regardless. I suspect they’re the kind of people who grow old and spend their last remaining days on this earth trying to ruin the lives of youngsters by confiscating their football, or starting neighbour watch groups determined to prevent kids from laughing. They don’t enjoy football, they enjoy moaning about it. They’re Arsenal fans basically. Joe You almost sound like you’re not a Leeds fan! Unfortunately it’s so hard to think rationally about my beloved Leeds United – I’m sure many fans will agree. A loss ruins my day. Mid table mediocrity drags me down even further, and relegation…well, let’s not go there. I want to see Leeds beating any opposition put in front of them, I don’t care whether they’re Histon or Manchester United. The idea of a guy simulating the game on Football Manager to demonstrate a 3-0 win is possible did make me laugh out loud, though. Matthew Simon Grayson is the best manager we’ve had in years and is working in an extremely difficult enviroment compared to other managers with more money available, if anything I would love him to speand as much time as Leeds as Alex Ferguson at Scum. I think some people miss the fact that he’s still a young manager with heeps more experience to gain, it can only be in the interests of Leeds United that he stays. If he gets sacked by Bates, it’l piss me off enough to join the Bates out protestors, and I’m not the protesting type. Matthew *as much time at Leeds Sorry for not proof reading that comment lol Danel Well said. Grayson is a good manager, don’t get me wrong, i am a big fan but i still critisize him from time to time, like his refusal to rotate tiring players but that’s part of being a fan, wanting him sacked though!? Extreme. I want to see him at Leeds in years to comes as he cares for the club and knows what the fans want. Do we really want someone like Iain Dowie managing our Leeds? Behave. MOT with Grayson!! Will23 Burn the heretics! For God is Grayson. Grayson is God. All hail the mighty G. Let’s kiss his glorious pearly white backside as he uses his omnipotent power to part his pert cheeks ready for our deliverance. Forgive us our sins for daring to continue with our stubborn position. Forgive our sins of not enjoying your brand of football, oh mighty G. Forgive us for demanding weekly victories which are beyond your powers. Forgive us the sin of desiring Barcelona type performances, oh mighty G. Forgive us the temptations brought on by watching better teams, of seeing other teams lifting trophies, forgetting that we must forever live a life of football supporting poverty. Forgive us, mighty G for being tempted by the tasty fruits of others who try to tease our support away from our club; Forgive us all these sins and more as only the mighty G is allowed to be tempted by the fruits of another. Amen. Quick question TSS: are you the “peoples front of LUFC” or the “LUFC peoples front”? (reference: the wonderful “Life of Brian” for those too engrossed in ass kissing Grayson to have a life outside football or LUFC). I would hate to join the wrong group and just like to know which leader’s opinion I should be parroting. Just asking. LeedsForLife If that’s what you want, why don’t you just piss off and ‘support’ Man Utd or Man City or Chelsea? Will23 Eh? How does what I wrote relate to your comment? Why does my assessment of Grayson as no better than a journeyman mean I should support another team? Matthew correctly identified the sarcasm of the post, written in response to a ridiculous slur on those who clearly see the limitations of Grayson-the-journeyman. Had to laugh at his response to Bates’ tongue-lashing with his “top-two” target. That he believes himself capable of this achievement is not to be denigrated – ambition is good. The problem is that talent, not just hard work or words, is alos required to meet your ambitions; talent Grayson does not possess. TSS See, now you’re getting it! Taylor Will23 that post was almost complete gibberish. Well done. Matthew Will23 if I remember right likes to rant on about his anti Grayson reviews, I remember him cluttering some of the earlier posts with his garbage. Although gibberish, I think Will was trying to be sarcastic with his post. Henry V You must be drunk TSS!! No fan of a big club has had to put up with the nightmare we have endured these recent years. Leeds fans are no worse than other fans. It is nonsense to suggest they are!! ManU fans are disgruntled at the moment and they have won the title 100’s of times – almost! We are grossly overcharged, with little or no investment in the team! etc. etc….. Simon is an excellent manager and I hope he is with us for many years. The drop in support is a reflection of the fans despair. Also the Chairman (and now you) calling our protesters ‘morons’ has angered many supporters. I am always optimistic, but also realistic. The most important player in our team is the goalkeeper. Brian Clough thought so and I believe he is correct. You, TSS, are up and down like a bottle of pop! number1inyorkshire i myself do not know where the politics of leeds united football lie with host of the site at the moment .. TSS And for the record number1, we have never criticised the manager or team. I’ve taken regular shots at Ken Bates, but have always been 100% supportive of the manager and his decisions. Not sure where you think I’m “up and down” but am willing to check out any examples you may wish to provide? number1inyorkshire thats my point that you have,t slagged of the manager /team ,well apart from the defence and rachubka the other day but you have the chairman ,they are one aren’t they ,which is why i mentioned the chairman on my post . we choose our victims to vilify yours been bates others grayson .whats the difference .. TSS The owner governs everything. When we can’t buy players, or meet their wage demands, that’s down to Bates who is too busy sticking unnecessary boxes on the East Stand or drawing up plans for a hotel. Grayson and the team do the job asked of them, they work to please us – they have no control over where our investment is spent. The chairman works to fleece us out of every penny. One is business, one is football. In a football sense, I’m happy with what SG and the team have achieved all things considered. As a customer, I’ve never felt more robbed and abused. I can’t fault Grayson’s effort, passion and commitment and the same is true of the team. Like us, they simply want to succeed. They don’t always get it right, but you can see it hurts them as much as the fans when they don’t. Bates on the other hand, I’m not entirely sure what his priorities are but he clearly couldn’t care less about the fans and doesn’t seem to be plowing cash in for a promotion push. They’re two entirely different things. Supporting the team doesn’t mean you have to like how you’re treat as a customer, or how things are run by those above. Matthew Speaking of the chairman and his fleecing of the fans, the low attendences and the lack of effort to get the fans into Elland Road says it all. He should be reducing ticket prices, and perhaps giving out offers for those wanting several tickets(Like families) I long for the day we get a full up Stadium again, but fear it won’t be until we’re back in the Prem, even then I’m skeptical Gryff In terms of criticising players, TSS, I do recall you being rather harsh on Becchio before he started scoring hatfuls of goals a year or so ago… You’ve had the patience of a saint with Paynter, though! TSS I was never being intentionally critical of Becchio, I was trying to counteract those that slagged Beckford off, yet made out Bwcchio was without fault. He does run around like a headless chicken at times, and does miss a lot of six yarders, but it doesn’t mean I appreciate his contribution any less – I just felt it was worth considering when people made out Beckford was the only one who had any kind of fault to his game. You are right to an extent however. I was never Becchio’s biggest fan, but I always supported him like any other member of the team and was the first to hold my hands up when he stepped up and started banging goals in for fun. LeedsForLife No1, your comment is a splendidly ironic response to the article. Did you intend that? I’d have thought one of the many good things to be said about TSS is that it is determinedly independent of politics, and can therefore speak freely. If the writer sees something worth saying about the club, he’ll say it (and we probably won’t all like it or agree with it). It isn’t required to be consistent in what is published, and that’s just as well, because circumstances change continually, new factors come to light, and sometimes earlier misjudgements have to be corrected – and it’s the inability or refusal of some fans to do just that that the article is pointing out. TSS You’ve just said “Simon is an excellent manager and I hope he is with us for many years,” that’s exactly my point. I wasn’t criticising the fans in general, I was criticising those who seem to enjoy it when we win because it gives them basis for their perpetual moaning. You’ve hit on the nonsense from Bates, and the fact Simon has succeeded regardless – which I’m also in full agreement with. In fact, I’m not entirely sure what we’re disagreeing on? My gripe is with a tiny section of fans who don’t support the team or the manager, but spend their entire life picking faults with both regardless of result, then seen to enjoy it when we lose because they believe it proves their point. I know I ranted a little, but did try to make that bit clear? LeedsForLife Brilliant article! One of the best I’ve read in ages. Anywhere. About anything. There are probably miserable gits moaning about most clubs, but dourness, trenchancy and a chip on the shoulder are all too common parts of the psyche of West and South Yorkshire people. I’ve been saying pretty much the same things as this article (though nowhere near as eloquently) about those fans who refuse to acknowledge any achievement of Ken Bates in turning the club round, and who continually sap morale by whinging. Hang on, though… it’s TSS that I have to keep arguing with about that! Heck, life’s confusing sometimes. number1inyorkshire could the same be said about a chairman ?? when we are winning its the managers fault ,when we are loosing its the chairman’s . grayson is part of the inner circle ,the top table the hierarchy . when we were winning Bates still got stick. winning 1-0 or loosing 1-0 has nothing to do with bates . grayson took all the plaudits for getting us up from L1 ,it was the same chairman that got us up ,that bought the players that kept beckford instead of selling him to Newcastle that has been lambasted for not buying players this . we do want it our own way we want to praise and slag off and then praise again ,we choose who are victims are at our own leisure ,howson ,snodders ,the back four the manager the chairman ,the chairman have all been at some point this season victims . why do we do it , well because we hurt when we loose going home in the car is the worst journey 0-5 ,we feel we do our bit we are paying good money turn out in fairly big numbers ,what can we do but come on here and have our say . I do not think all the sack grayson comments are reactionary there will be some and i am getting there myself who feel he has gone as far as he can with leeds ,i am not saying sack him but . the reactionary bit comes when we loose 0-5 it makes people who have these thoughts to make them public ,they will have had them before though . i do not think that you can say that TSS “could the same be said about a chairman ??” No. Never. On reflection, that was a lot more rant-like than initially intended. number1inyorkshire i guessed so LOL good read though .. Matthew I disagree, the Grayson out comments seem to come whenever we lose a game, some people expect us to win every single game and spit their dummy out when we lose and cry Grayson out. These are simply reactionary comments from people, when we win Grayson is King, when we lose Grayson has to go according to the certain subset of perhaps armchair supporters on forums/the more fickle fans who go to games. number1inyorkshire undoubtedly they do , you would be stupid to come on here and start shouting for the gaffer to go when they had won 5-0 . what i am saying is that people had the thoughts about grayson before they just make them public as tss said we won on Sunday and people are still calling for him to go . there will have been people who think he should have never got the job to start with thats not reactionary . i could even suggest there are more people than we think who wouldn’t mind if grayson left .. Matthew The same people who had *Thoughts* that Grayson should go are the same people that say he should go when we lose. Simples. Reactionary comment if I’ve ever seen one from people. And the people who think he should never of got the job are idiots he has given the glory hunters enough glory to last a lifetime, especially the 0 – 1 over Scum in 2010. The There’s only one Simon Grayson chants say it all, the fans are happy with Grayson, those who aren’t can quite frankly F off. number1inyorkshire Matthew you are obviously happy with Larry but the same fans who sing there is only 1 Larry grayson when we are winning are the same fans who boo and shout what the f is going on when we lose . you have agreed with my point when we win people want him out when we loose they do ,they are not reacting to loosing they always thought that , there are people who like bates another shock .. LeedsForLife Hear hear. Some people just don’t think at all, of course. All their brains are needed for breathing and talking; there’s nothing left for thinking with. Matthew Not everyone who sings about Larry is calling for his head. I don’t agree. But in that regard you’re entitled to your opinion. Just even people who support Grayson can be gloomy because things aren’t going well, it in no way means they’re being fickle and are simply switching between Grayson in/out depending on results. I agreed because it’s simply the same people that are spouting the same nonsense that Grayson should go, he’s in a non win situation with these people. Just I have not seen much evidence of huge amount of Grayson out supporters, if you can provide proof of this I’ll be all ears. LeedsForLife No1, that’s not right. Of course there are a few as you say, and they’re the ones TSS is having a deserved go at, but the vast majority of us do not swing between adulation and demanding resignation on every result. Most of us are very happy with SG. If we lose or there’s something not quite right, we’ll be concerned, of course, and we all have our opinions about how the team should be managed, but most of us understand how lucky we are to have SG and accept that a young manager with limited resources can’t achieve the impossible. number1inyorkshire ls 10 been one lol he must have posted when i was replying PERFECT EXAMPLE madmack What exactly as ken bates turned around. LeedsForLife Oh, you know, the usual obvious stuff. Turning a bankrupt club into a solvent one. Turning a club hurtling downwards towards extinction into a club that’s climbing steadily back towards where it belongs, and doing it the right way, the football way, the Yorkshire way, not by just splashing some rich playboy’s undeserved millions around. Andy Nattan My favourite bit was when Bates turned us round from being a team that lost a playoff final to a team that his best mate Dennis took into the third division. No, wait, it was the time he turned us from a club that he’d already claimed was moving into the right direction into one that went into administration and lost 25 points in two seasons. No, I’m wrong. My all time favourite bit was when Ken Bates turned us from a team that builds around youth into a team that sells Fabian Delph to build executive boxes that we can’t sell a ticket for. Hooray for Ken! Anthony Lewis This is a fantastic piece. Funny, insightful, interesting and most of all so true! Keep up the good work! ls10 never wanted him as manager; he should have been put to pasture on south beach as he’s a donkey. plays players out of position, bottles it every jan, team start most matches after 50 minutes not from kick off. 3 years to sort defence out and it took him 5-6 games to see rachubka is a clown. simon “kemit the frog” grayson – THE MUPPET. LeedsForLife FFS. trueyorxman OB not injured, he just split with some bird he was about to wed. No wonder he was bobbins at start of the season but obviously sorted himself out goin on Sun performance number1inyorkshire lucky escape ,lucky bugger ,there’s a Mrs grayson in Skipton looking for romance . Gryff “Like the gay lads that marry and have kids,” Harry Kewell? TSS Well, I wasn’t going to name names… number1inyorkshire are you on the right site gryff . i know there is slight football reference with kewell but have you clicked on the wrong tab ,expand lol .. Gryff Well lads who marry even though they’re gay. Come on, Harry Kewell is the perfect example! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcEBelsWyNs&feature=watch_response_rev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtjdkVg8R7M&feature=related (Oh look it’s our favourite club…) Gryff What grates with me with the current setup is the lack of rotation with the team. It’s not a major complaint, but it’s something a lot of people agree with. For me, though, it’s not to do with fatigue so much. With a bench of 7, and 3 available subs for the match, it’s never going to be NFL with tactical switches, but I do get a little perplexed with how this manager who supposedly analyses the opposition and works his tactics based on that thinks that virtually the same formation and players will get the job done every time. Fair play to him, this is football not NFL, and Grayson’s building a good team who should be in the Prem in a year or two, but I don’t remember another manager keeping to just 11-13 players so much. LeedsForLife Gryff, you’re obviously not old enough to remember Don Revie, then. Same team every game, barring injuries and suspensions. Probably didn’t use more than 13 players during some whole seasons. (Sprake Reaney Cooper Bremner Charlton Hunter Lorimer Clarke Jones Giles Gray Madeley Bates) And those players knew each other inside out. They always knew what their teammates were thinking, planning, doing and capable of, because they were the same lads they played with all the time. Gryff True, but if that’s so then TSS doesn’t need to defend Grayson for always fielding the same team and not being a master tactician. Either way, it’s senseless saying somebody’s something just to try to quiet criticism of them. If Grayson’s a good manager and doesn’t see the need to tinker, why not just say that. OzTyke Phwoaarr, is Mrs G fit then? number1inyorkshire not as fit as the blonde club employee in Mr G,s opinion .. number1inyorkshire no one goes or very few go to elland road and slag the team/manager off even when we were loosing 0-5 to Blackpool ,but in the bars ,pubs ,cars buses etc there will have been loads, we are misguided if we do not think those people are there at all times irrelevant of winning or loosing .. Matthew Oh I guess that somewhat explains things, I don’t go in pubs much after games, if anything I just head home. number1inyorkshire i feel you believe there are no dissenting voices to the manager and thats your opinion . you are wrong there has been plenty on here this season alright not all saying sack him but questioning his ,team selection ,loans over the years and his abilities in general. i know what is said in the post match pubs i should i own 3 Matthew I said there were no large scale anti Grayson movements, not that there were no people calling for his head. So you own 3 pubs? So do Scratchingshed commenters get free drinks? Lol number1inyorkshire my own mother pays !!!and yes 3 pubs i own (yoda)i will give free drinks to leeds fans in the pub in the devon area i have if they are local and can produce match tickets for all the home games that are theirs . Matthew Lol I was only joking about the drink thing dude, that said good you didnt say which pub you owned with that free drink offer, if we ever find ourselves back in league 1 playing the likes of Exeter again, some fans may take you up on that generous offer number1inyorkshire thats why i said no names its actually in the Exeter area within 20 miles or so in fact my brother has a hotel in Exeter and lives there ,its a small world LeedsForLife Yes, of course they’re there, No1, and a right royal pain in the arse they are, too, the miserable bastards. But they are a very small proportion of the crowd and fanbase. Aren’t they? number1inyorkshire they are at games of course a small minority and less so afterwards when we win but when we loose there will be some discord , look its not like Blackburn but we are fickle how long do we give him ?? LeedsForLife No1, none of us like losing, do we? We’re bound to discuss with a little more concern after a defeat than after a victory. Surely you do that yourself, don’t you? Do many of us really say ‘Grayson’s got to go’ after each defeat? Do many of us say that ever, in fact? A few pea-brains, yes, but almost all of us continue to support Grayson even when the team loses, surely? number1inyorkshire if you were counting them the ones that do would win and comfortably but not all is my point .there are people who will think about O’Neill etc etc my guess would be unless we are in prem at the end of next season lazza boy will be gone then we have the same love hate relationship with our next manager .And we will move on grayson who will be the cry John Hunter Such a Yorkshire piece. Keith Waterhouse and Alan Bennett. “Don’t get above that station in life lad”. Grayson is a first division manager and Bates has all the class of Berlusconi on a bad day. We have let so many good players come and go; Cantona and Ferdinand instantly spring to mind. We’re worth more than this really. A big city, big heart and endlessly loyal supporters. But we need Nouse, AMBITION and most of all INVESTMENT and then we’ll be rightfully competing where we belong. Matthew How is he a first division manager? He got us promoted from League 1, got us into the top 6 of the Championship for a long stretch on the very of auto promo to the Prem before we went off the rails and dropped out the top 6 last season. I think that’s pretty good for a *First division* manager. Matthew *on the verge number1inyorkshire another 1 lol LeedsForLife John, what on earth have Cantona and Ferdinand got to do with Grayson and Bates? Ambition and investment are not only about pouring unearned money in to buy success, like Chelsea and Man City. That sort of success is pathetic and has nothing to do with football or with Yorkshire honesty. Leeds Utd is moving steadily upwards, showing it is ambitious. As it does so, it’s building a firm financial foundation, which is the very best form of investment. oldschoolbaby I don`t think I`ve been rabidly anti – Grayson but, I have to confess, I have my doubts about how far he can take us. Football management is an extremely tough business. Being the manager of Leeds United is not an open ended personal development opportunity and it most certainly is not a 25 year sinecure. Those at the top of the pyramid come under intense pressure and scrutiny, those that prevail may only be a few percentage points better than those who don`t. That`s why you have to be quite ruthless, and devoid of sentiment, in securing the best you can. Last year Paul Lambert, for me, had the measure of SG as a thinker and a manager. This year Adkins has his measure as a man, a motivator, a public face of the club, a leader and a manager. To name, the rather obvious two As with the Bates conundrum there is little point in discarding someone if there isn`t an improved version available. But if the situation does arise SG, I feel, is vulnerable number1inyorkshire you have said in 1 post what i have failed to say in all my etchings on here ,you are with myself and others who are starting to think that long term ,grayson has gone as far as he can with leeds you are right that ultimately he will go the way of the others but could i suggest that will be a leeds managers problem for years to come ,not just graysons LeedsForLife It’s a problem for every football manager, not just for the Leeds one. It’s a bad thing. Clubs sack managers because they don’t achieve immediate success. Yet it takes years to build the foundations of sustainable success. If clubs only want the quick deliverers, the instant gratification, they’ll never get proper foundations. A bit of patience is not such a bad thing, even for football fans who want their club to be at the top. Grayson’s still developing as a manager. He learned how to manage in League 1, then how to get promoted out of it. He’s learned how to manage in the Championship. Hopefully he’s learning how to get promoted out of it. Then hopefully he’ll learn how to manage in the Premiership, and then how to do well in it. Maybe we won’t be able to achieve all those steps, and then he’ll have to go, or maybe he’ll turn out to be good enough for Premiership success. But there’s no indication yet that he’s peaked. If we don’t get promoted this season, or at least into the playoffs, then he’s vulnerable. If we don’t get promoted by the end of next season then he’s failed. Until then, there’s no reason to doubt him or to undermine his confidence or morale. number1inyorkshire hmmmmmmmmmmmm John Hunter Actually (thinks) I take all my comments back. I really do want a creaking stadium, Chelsea Master Bates leaching and good old (tha nos) Yorkshire GRIT. Chelsea and Man City’s success is pathetic. You’re all right. I want Mr’s Ackroyd’s fish and chip emporium investement. It’s honest Leeds home grown successs. Nowt tekken owt. LeedsForLife Well done, John. You’re starting to understand what football’s really about. gerrycwmbran An EXCELLENT article – and I wish I’d written it! I am SICK of hearing from a tiny minority of so=called fans wo do nothing but moan – they ought to be Donnie fans then perhaps they’d have something to really moan about (though well done for winning last weekend!). I was brought up when school meant football on a saturday and sunday – and we played our hearts out – only wanting to WIN. The BEST team was picked EVERY game and that meant we sometimes had to play out of position. I was also brought up in Revie’s time when we were at our greatest – and I seem to remember that EVERY WEEK he played the SAME team and quite often out of position!! Simon has done and will continue to do wonders, Bates will continue to get us on a firm financial footing, Elland Road will continue to be upgraded – and the TEAM and manager will get us back into the Top flight – and hopefully this year! The Leeds cup is half full NOT half empty. MOT. John Hunter Aye. Jumpers for goal posts and the magic sponge. Them we t’days. It’s 2011 however. And even Wigan (WIGAN!) are above us. gerrycwmbran … yeah, but not for long! lol madmack Administration made leeds solvent not bates.Do we own elland rd no,do we own thorp arch no.Where were we when bates took over, championship. where are we now you guessed it championship.Where’s the bates turnaround there. LeedsForLife Then it was the championship but going downwards fast towards closure under the weight of massive debts and without a championship team after the fire sale. Now it’s the championship but going steadily upwards without debts and with a good, enthusiastic young team that may be good enough for promotion to the premiership. madmack Never mind at least we have some nice shiny elevators in the east stand.There’s your bates legacy. Snowjoke Yorkshire born, Yorkshire bred, Strong in t’ arm, Thick in t’ head, AND PROUD OF IT!!! But support Larry, even when he just scratches his head as the 5th goal flies in…. LeedsLuvver Doesn’t matter what the article writer wrote, or wether you support grayson or not; truth is, if a team is performing badly, for whatever reason, blame and responsibility falls squarely on managers shoulders, always has had and always will. Personally, I don’t rate grayson, never have since 2nd half of L1. We slid backwards after having an 11 point lead and only just scraped promotion in 2nd place. Following season we occupied most of season in top 6, then we starting sliding backwards and finished outside the top 6. 7th may as well have been 77th, doesn’t matter. Anyone see the pattern there in both 2nd half of seasons? This season is the first season grayson won’t have all or most of Maccas players, cos he got rid of’em all, for one reason or another. So lets see if we don’t/do start slipping backwards in 2nd half of season, if we don’t do it before hand. Let’s also see how Grayson does with his own loanees, freebies and personally picked players. Make or break season for grayson. Martin Shand Completely disagree. Simon Grayson is useless. Same tactics, same team, every single week. He is reactive, not proactive. He’s spending too much time with the mistress instead of studying other teams and adapting our squad and tactics. We are predictable, and the players become so tired that performances seem to drop around Christmas every year. In the past his subs were suitable and seemed to have an effect, whilst this year they have been useless and in some cases cost us points. I like the guy because he cares passionately about the club, he just simply isn’t good enough. number1inyorkshire And all these last posts against grayson are based on long time thinking back to L1 not a reaction to loosing 5-0 Snowjoke Gerrycwmbran. Your comment about Revie always picking the same team brought back a few memories. I particularly remember Norman Hunter badly damaging ankle ligaments and immediately being ruled out of a big match the following Saturday. The sort of injury that would lay you up for a good month, these days. And have you attending a Scandinavian clinic for your sheep embryo injections. But, towards the end of the week, a faint hint from Revie that the player might – just might – be recovering. And sure enough, at the last possible minute, an announcement that, yes, “Hunter would play”. Cue for ER to erupt and the shoulders of opposition players, warming up, to visibly slump. Our man duly trotted out, ankle VERY heavily bandaged, and played his usual uncompromising blinder. It’s all different now, of course, with squad rotation and tactical substitutions making the idea of always fielding your best XI redundant. Amazing though to think they often used to play 60+ games over the course of a season, many in ankle-deep mud against ruthless tackling. But, as one of the team once said, “You don’t get tired when you’re winning…..” Happy days. Oh yeah. Agree that the TSS article is a really excellent piece of work. Eloquent, thoughtful, provocative and a treat to read. oldschoolbaby The best indicator lies in the picture at the top. He hasn`t shaved. Now that could be a positive. He could be that absorbed in his job that he forgot. But plugging the secretary kills that theory off Of course substance is more important than presentation but that does not make the latter irrelevant. When he`s interviewd I often wince, it`s so much mumblefuck. I can`t remember the last time he said something that got me thinking. On the touchline, as mentioned above, he can look flummoxed and he also has the look of a naughty schoolboy in adversity. 90% of communication is non- verbal. It`s hard to be critical of passion but he`s too animated when we score. It`s our job to leap about like buffoons. His job is to re-compute the variables None of these points make him a bad manager but when too many minor points accumulate you are entitled to ask questions. Meanwhile Adkins is smart, articulate and exudes calm, confident authority I don`t want to argue about tactics. Most disagreeing people are making valid points. But to resurrect the Blackpool fiasco the issue of why the defensively limited Howson went to RB when there was a like for like replacement on the bench desperately needing game time in view of Lees` impending suspension is enough to give me a nightmare. Especially as Becchio was a one up front bench reinforcement too I could go on actually but given the spirit of the article I won`t. My final point is that I`m not convinced of his ability to pick a player. I was rather disappointed we didn`t snaffle Sammy Klingon in the window. There was enough smoke to suggest the fire reveals that SG really rates him. I would have liked to have seen what he brought to the party matt Why are people mixing the bates saga with the grayson saga? Two completely different arguments! LeedsForLife Matt: Because both ‘sagas’ are dreampt up and kept going by a small number of ‘fans’ who think the way to support Leeds Utd is to moan about it all the time. Which was rather the point of the article. Some people just aren’t happy if they haven’t got something to be bitter and twisted about. number1inyorkshire whats a small number of “dissidents” ??. There are a growing number thats a fact , it seems we are allowed to moan about some things but not others . Ive said it before ,Grayson is leeds manager not a leeds fan . just because they do not rant at the team all the time and rant from the kop ,it doesn’t mean they are not there Matthew Don’t call something a fact if you don’t have the proof to back said fact up. And by proof I mean something you can actually show people, not just opinions. number1inyorkshire you only have to look on here to see that there are more and more people saying they want grayson out from when he was 1st appointed to now ,when he was 1st appointed there was noone now there are at least 10 on here this post, so young man that is a fact, that there are a growing number of people wanting him out, even if its only 10 its more than none so a growing number .. factoid ,im afraid there is the proof so its not an opinion its a fact !!!!! Matthew No it’s not. Not wanting to argue with you but you haven’t posted any *Facts* nor have I or anyone else on here. Look, I’m not calling your opinion bullshit, no, I’m just saying you can’t pass off what you’re saying as fact until it has undenyable proof to back up your claims. number1inyorkshire i wouldn’t argue with any one about opinions but each post you read there are more people coming on here berating the manager . Now that can be verified by reading the posts ,its not a huge amount but a growing number 1or 2 then 3or4 now 10 or so but an upward incline . when something has occurred or is actually the case its a fact .. Matthew So you’re basing your opinion on 10 peoples comments, isn’t that kinda erm stupid? We’re not on a Doncaster Rovers fan blog here, we do have more than 10 fans at Leeds United lol number1inyorkshire no im not i will have to explain my point . which follows ,i have never said that there are 000,s shouting for larry out .what i am saying is that from a standing start of zero there are people questioning his abilities and that number is getting bigger ,10 is the number on this post not in general it will be in the hundreds and maybe a thousand or more of people who regularly go to the ground .. now my fact not my opinion is,it is getting bigger ,they are not shouting for his head ,from the stands ,or writing on here ,but will be on the way home from games discussing it like i am sure you do with your mate ,you will quickly come round again to the larry leeds fan is our best manager ,sadly some will want him out .. just for the record i also feel more people do not shout from the stands as respect for the players who are faultless in this as opposed to liking bates ,grayson and co not a fact an opinion you see the difference . JD SG is a young manager who’s taken on a tough job….we all know that. But there’re other factors that we can’t be sure of. Is this ‘get back in the Premiership and you pay’ axe hanging over the club’s head a reason for holding back at Kenneth’s request? Sounds unlikely but you do wonder. Something else that’s occurred to me at home matches recently is the lack of atmosphere. We need to get behind the team 100%. We’re part of the eternal triangle – team, manager, supporters. If one of those isn’t functioning properly then we won’t go anywhere. Norwich and Southampton are good examples of what happens when that triangle is strong. Brendan Staunton I’ve supported the club for over 40 years. I was a kid in the cowshed when Leeds took the piss out of Southampton 7-0. We were like Man U with a splash of Barcelona and I thought it would always be that way. But the fans were always moaning. It’s what fans do. You see, that famous Southampton match followed on from the ManU 5-1 thrashing and when we weren’t immediately banging in the goals the crowd got on the team’s back. Now sometimes the team deserve it; I’ve completely given up on supporting England because I think the players don’t try. But I’ve never seen a Leeds United team not try. We have to get behind the team, whatever happens, because to do otherwise won’t make it better. Losing is a reality for most of the league’s 92 clubs and we’re lucky to support a club that can realistically hope to improve. Grayson is a great manager. He’s also one of us. That’s important because whenever we get someone good who’s not affiliated and we start to do well, a big club comes in. I’d stick with Grayson and I think he can get us in the Prem. Then? Who knows? Craig Excellent post TSS. I blame the ‘know it all’ pundits on TV and radio who can pull everyone else’s mistakes apart but aren’t willing to try managing a club themselves. airforce5 Well said. Would be interesting to see a table showing league position / investment made over the last 2 seasons. Imagine how Leicester fans are feeling. Well done Grayson and well done Leeds. onandon. Guy Truly ace rant, bang-on! Colin I think everyone has the right to berate and question their manager if they so wish. If you can’t get angry at the lows then it’s unlikely you can enjoy the highs. Grayson gets hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to manage Leeds. He gets the praise and the plaudits when the results go well and should be ready for the complaints when things go wrong. Is everyone a football manager? Well, probably they are a little bit. I think I’ve every right to moan about Grayson when he makes a mistake. For example, after a few games, I knew, and so did thousands of others that Paynter was hopeless and should be dropped. Grayson persisted with Paynter. That was a mistake. Should I have sat on my hands while watching Paynter ambling around like a fool, purely because Grayson knows best? No. And I didn’t. I slated Grayson. And I maintain I was right and I have the right to do it. I enjoy good football and I enjoy moaning about football, but I would describe it more as ‘having a discussion’ and after all, that’s what this site is all about isn’t it? If the ‘moaners’ stopped and the only discussion points were positive ones, I reckon you’d probably have 90% less posts and visits to this site. TSS – Good article by the way, but I just wanted to come on here and have a good old moan Gryff Purely playing devil’s advocate here Colin, but was McCormack a similar case that turned out differently? I remember a lot of criticism of McC (and I might have dropped him at one point when he was on 2-3 goals this season) but he’s turned out good in the end… Matthew Jurys still out on McCormack in my eyes, excellent start to the season yes, but he hasn’t scored for over 6 games, or if you want to be specific since we played Doncaster on the 14th of Oct. If he doesn’t score soon, he needs dropping. Colin I’d agree with that Gryff. The only thing I’d say is that Paynter specifically stood out for me, because of his lack of work rate, so I opted for him as my example. 24 games, 24 shots (on & off target), 1 goal. oldschoolbaby There`s a bit of over analysis going on now. Fundamentally nothing has changed. The real difference is that where we would previously bore a few mates in the pub with our football theories, we are now able to bore a considerably wider audience in cyberspace. Moaning, and being controversial for that matter, are quite legitimate. Even tempered TSS has to rattle a cage occasionally. A banal, mutual appreciation site would quickly lose its following However, what is VITAL is that we differentiate between bitching amongst ourselves on a day to day basis and match day unity. The commentator who spotlighted a triumvirate of manager, players and supporters was 100% right. And a display of watertight, matchday unity, which has real capacity to intimidate the opposition, should actually include the Chairman. Arthur Graham biggest load of utter dross ive ever read. Can tell its the international break. Yes most fans want a successful competing for trophies Leeds, not stuck in this shit league. If that makes the fans glory hunters so be it. For nearly 40 yrs ive followed Leeds home and away and im proud to have been with us when we have won trophies, championships and played around thd world. Grayson will never deliver the “good times ” back to Leeds, he isnt good enough. Being Leeds born or Bedale to precise does not make Grayson a ‘legend’ only buy him more time with some of you “morons”. So yes Grayson out because an eternity in this shit league doesnt bear thinking about. Got nowt to do with being an armchair, gloryhunting, partime fan you pratt. Im none of them. Face up to fact theres a growing group of fans who unlike you Tss who should go specsavers with your Graysons a legend fan club. Revie was a legend and would be turning in his grave to see the likes of Bates and Tim nice but fuckin dim Grayson at the helm of his beloved club. Imbercile! LeedsForLife It’s hard to imagine a clearer example of the point the article was making. Arthur Graham @Andy Nattan. Excellent and spot on mate. WhiteDubai Better late than never, let me comment. I am one of those that “overreacted” lately. I overreacted after seeing my lovely club once again slipping in one of the lower divisions. My overaction was mainly due to the fact that we are continuing scoring goals and get the nullified due to stupid defensive errors. That happened under Grayson in League One, it happened under Grayson last year and cost us the play-offs and it happens today. unimpressing teams come and beat us heavily on our home ground (Preston and Blackpool) and we can’t kill teams off. How many times in the last year have we been winning with more than a solitary goal? We have a much better attendance than teams in this league, our ticket revenues is superior to all, why can’t we build a strong solid team? Why do we loose players like Beckford, Gradel, Johnson and Schmeichel and recruit all this mediocre loan players? In my opinion Grayson is a good manager, the best we had for many years but infortunately he doesn’t seem to get the job done and ultimately he has to take the blame. The main culprit is the Chairman, with another Chairman I am sure Grayson would have done better although under this Chairman, and the way things are going, he will not bring us back to Premier League. I reckon it is time for a change, Bates will not go and hence we need to replace the manager to a manager that stand up against the Chairman and the board and demand more funding for players so that we can keep the good players we have and recruit some that add strength to the team. I have supported Leeds for 40 years, I will continue to overreact, have my opinion and challange the way the club is run. That is my right and that is why I love this club. MOT Beene I thought I was on the wrong website, a hint of something positive. Hallelujah! jimmy on eeye Another really good article TSS, the appointment of the right manager is the most difficult task of a chairman at any club and if Bates has done nothing else right he has at least got this one spot on. He has worked wonders on a tight budget. If only Grayson had have had O’Learys budget? Come to think of it, if only O’Neill had have had O’Learys budget, this article may never have existed. fish we want a team not a hotel! if grayson is still here in 5-6 years we will be top half of prem. i dont want a rubbish manager in charge that doesnt care about leeds (dowie, wise, davies…the list goes on) Ben Rosamond Exactly! Well said. Keith Creagmile Well said mate! Christopher Deighton Ear ear . ! Chris Hardy Pay yer money at the gate you can say what you like for me. Long as it ain’t racist, bigoted or otherwise offensive. Don’t think having a pop at people for airing their views it particularly productive either to be honest just because they don’t agree with you.